I don’t usually buy the Sindo, but it’s all they have here in this corner of Spain. Anyway, it’s always nice to catch up with the latest shenanigans, scandals and corruption at home. Makes you enjoy your holiday all the more, I find.
So what have we got? Gerry Ryan slipping off the mortal coil, leaving a €300,000 tax bill behind. A “market gardener” from Swords leaving €3 million in his will (oh to be self-employed in Ireland. As soon as I get back it’s down to the Tech for some horticultural evening classes). Mary McAleese, our esteemed president, running up €1.2 million in expenses over four years. Rumours of Lenihan being forced to call an early budget to address the public finances. Pyramid-scheme fruadsters who continue to live lavish lifestyles, whose activities have yet to warrant an interview by the Garda. Where’s that Wolfe Tones CD, begob? I’m getting homesick here.
You can only take so much news from home, so thankfully, the apartment we’ve rented does not have RTE. I’ve been able to keep up with the important news though, such as Leeds United being promoted and Norris escaping the clutches of Mary in Coronation Street.
Then there was the British election. Great to see the BNP humiliated, losing all 12 of their council seats and getting nothing on a national(ist) level, after fielding some 300 candidates. Nevertheless it’s worrying that over half a million people voted for them. Not so great to see the Tories elected, but at least whatever power they hold will be tenuous. And can they be much worse than Gordon Brown’s Labour anyway? Speaking of whom, when IS he going to naff off?
And what about that Shinner who scraped in by four seats? A salutary vindication of that party’s old “vote early and vote often” policy, if ever there was one. Then there was the truly incredible spectacle, to Irish eyes, of a politician being voted out after an expenses scandal (piffling compared with anything you would get here), with Jacqui Smith, ex home secretary, being told to sling her hook.
And on that theme: a very welcome ” bye-bye” to Peter Robinson. The DUP might very well count some prize bigots among its support, but at least they would appear to have standards of some sort.
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60 comments:
Hi GM, glad you are enjoying your break away from PaddyLand and that you are getting the important news there, like Leeds getting promoted and Norris escaping the cluthces of mad mary, a la Kathy Bates in Misery.
It is great news always for N Ireland to start producing normal results- means so much for the peace process. East belfast voted for Naomi Long of the Alliance party- a party set up in the early years of the troubles deliberately to be conciliatory and cross community.She seems a decent very well educated woman in her 30's, says she lived in East belfast all her life- and will do her best for the area. This is the Alliance Party's FIRST WESTMINISTER SEAT.Alliance deserve to grow- their members will keep their fingers out of the till, and try to do the job they are elected to do, kind of party Ireland needs, great BNP did badly : a party who like Sinn Fein and DUP achieved many of their results, by a playing on people's fears, real or imagined- so you never WILL get the best people OR good clear policies in such parties.
Incidentally, in the election run up, the BNP very kindly pointed out that they were not fussed on foreigners- but looked on us Irish as soulmates. So they wanted to stop foreigners coming to the UK- but had no problems with the Irish , as the Irish were part of the British isles. The British isles, incidentally ( according to an entry on wikipedia) was a name for these atlantic islands that was first used in the First century.In short it's a name about as politically significant as the Lofoten islands. However my workmate, Ellen was v indignant,"BNP are saying we are british - I'm not british''.Reminds me of the concerned Irish mother who - about 8 yrs ago- got Dept Education & Fallons to remove a map title in a school atlas showing the British isles. No doubt the same mother never comlained about anything else- but heaven forbid her child's mind be corrupted. I NEVER hear this nonsense in NI- even among people who have Irish passports & are v nationalistic. ( I have Irish & British passports). Only this year a Dublin theatre director, who had done a lot of work with an English playwright ( Harold Pinter? ) got a British award, possibly OBE. He was chided for taking it by well educated journalist Vincent Browne. Others said he should return his Irish passport!
My friend English nurse Jackie said she was eventually reduced to Tears after an Irish workmate constantly derided her for the centuries of evil the English had done. Is it only me who thinks this mind set is embarrassing - and not suitable for a mature independent nation?Whatever dastardly things the British did in Ireland have Nothing to do with their descendants generations later. Incidentally Black people in RSA were denigrated by not even being called black- but 'non whites.'I sometimes think Irish people don't have enough pride and collective spirt - because there never was a Positive feeling of Pride in being Irish or a Postive definite feeling as to what this country should achieve. But Never mind that!So long as we insist we're Non- British, that's all that counts.
Pierre my French tenant said a few things about Carla's total no of lovers I wouldn't repeat, when Sarkozy got married. "He's a wanker'Pierre said,'He is making France look SO bad!'He was very angry and indignant- and he was only 21. SIGH. Vive la France- what pride, what solidarity. If they could bottle it and send it with the wine, all our problems would be solved. Yes, lucky you being in the Romance regions
Yes GM plenty to blog about here! More so every day...
@Anna, yeah the last twenty years in Ireland have demonstrated an awful lot. Virtually all negative. Begrudgery is a way of life in Ireland.
An interesting thought someone ran by me a little while ago, if Ireland didnt break from the UK in 1922/49 it more than likely would have experienced a significant advancement in wealth from the 60s onwards. I wonder would it have such a drastic outcome. Methinks not.
Dakota
To Anon.
"...if Ireland didn’t break from the UK in 1922/49 it more than likely would have experienced a significant advancement in wealth from the 60s onwards."
Wishful thinking methinks. Ireland was linked to UK during its wealthiest years and got sweet FA. Why would it do well in the UK’s declining years?
Cannon fodder for WWII - that I would believe, but a significant advancement in wealth - no chance.
Mark
To Anna,
"Whatever dastardly things the British did in Ireland have nothing to do with their descendants generations later."
Good point, but sorry would be nice!!
Mark
Historically one should remember that the urban and rural poor in Britain were no better off pre-WII than their Irish counterparts. Secondly thousands upon thousands of Irish flocked to Britain to fight fascism in 1939. They also fought for what would become Britains socialist golden era post 1945 -1959.
I'm sure if Ireland remained part of the 'UK' it too would have shared that golden age, as well as the post-industrial nightmare Britain then became in the 70's and 80's. But, I imagine that Britain would now be a republic too. ;)
Hi Paul,
I have to say I don't agree. The only yardstick we have for All Ireland in the UK from 1922 to the present day is Northern Ireland - not a happy place. Certainly not a place based on ideas of equality and sharing the wealth.
Mark
Hello there Mark
You're forgetting about the UK's two most sectarian cities... Liverpool and Glasgow.. :0o
@Mark who said anything about wealth coming from the UK?? I was making the point, without literally spelling it out, that Ireland would have EVENTUALLY saw wealth from stabiblity. From European ecomonic boom generated by american money. This wealth would have provided most, if not all of basic infrastructure - BY NOW - which Ireland still does not have! - the real basis for economic growth!!
A good example of the short sightedness which was and IS characteristic of Irish policy since independence was the destruction of the extremely well organised tram system in Dublin, in the 1950s - hey which was ACTUALLY joined up!! Not to mention..... Well you know, mostly everthing else here....
When you say canon fodder you have a point, but an unpersuasive one. WWI maybe - though in reality not - though historians have debated that point ever since. The Hay plan, which was essentially a British Army plan, brought forward in 1918 to get troops from Ireland to fill the gap left from the mindless slaughter, was frought with problems and completely ineffectual. Moreover the input of the vast resources from America soon provided the manpower which Britain and France needed. The reason for the Irish "need" for indepence was based on the UKs reaction to 1916 and this percieved forced inscription by the British Army.
As for WWII, well it was the most necessary war in history. Was it not? A fight against the evil of Nazism. Would it have been such a bad thing if Ireland participated?
Why is it when anyone ever mentions anything about the first few decades of the last century, which might question the POSSIBILITY of circumstances taking a different route, Irish people get defensive?? You have to remember the vast majority of "Irish" people at the time were against the instigation for independence, the rising. The rising itself been undertaken, by mainly, the Citizen Army - a socialist movement. Overall throughout the Island of Ireland there was not more than a couple of thousand people ready to take to arms. Thats is a fact that has been continuously and conviently overlooked since independence. Why? Obviously because of Catholic indoctrination and to pander to an Irish ruling elite.
Ireland ever since never lived up to the ideals of the 1916 patriots, nevermind the core ideals of the Citizens Army. It was for all extent and purposes a Church run state. Specifically run by the Bishopry. Now its largely agnostic and its fundamental motivation is consumerism.
LOOK BEYOND WHAT YOU WERE TOLD. If you dont nobody is going to do it for you!
Mark when you say methinks, I dont think so.
Dakota
Cheerful news from the RTE website: Park Re-Naming
Monday, 10 May 2010 20:35: “A proposal to rename Archbishop Ryan Park in Dublin's Merrion Square has received the backing of local councillors. But councillors from the south east area committee want it renamed as Merrion Square Park and not after Oscar Wilde, which was the most popular choice by members of the public.98% cent of 567 responses received by Dublin City Council during a period of public consultation were in favour of renaming the park. This followed a motion from two Labour councillors who recommended the renaming because of criticism of Archbishop Ryan in the Murphy report 'as a gesture to all of those who suffered as a result of clerical abuse'Cllr Jim O'Callaghan of Fianna Fáil opposed the renaming, saying the council could be seen to be kicking the church while it is on its knees. He pointed out that it was the church who gave the land to the people of Dublin as a park. The area committee agreed an amendment that there should be a plaque recognising that the park was a gift from the Catholic church.”
NOTES: At last sense slowly prevails: giving a park a sensible name instead of blindly and servilely giving it a name of a church man: Labour councillors are usually a reliable beacon of common sense: Idiot who wanted Compassion shown to the Catholic church was FF ( NOTE that name well for future elections) : lands owned cathlco church were theirs only by donation of the people: in the time of Jesus the people did not look on the ‘Church’ as separate an and antagonistic from themselves, they Were the church.
But anyway! reassuring for GM man & others on holiday: It’s a small step for a grown up country, but a giant leap for Ireland…
@Dakota
Talking of the Trams... Then you'll remember Liverpools son 'Big' Jim Larkin ay? ... Maybe Mark also remembers that Irelands first Nationalist MP's were elected in Liverpool and not Ireland.
@Paul Mc Coach 10:49. Whats your point?
Dakota
@Dakota
Your basic point appears to be that a longer union with Britian would have benefited Ireland. Why would that be so when the long union prior to 1922 didn't deliver this and when Northern Irelands longer union also failed to deliver this?
Regarding trams, almost every city in the world pulled them up, and with good reason. Buses are still far more flexible as a means of delivering public transport.
You talk of thinking - maybe you should try it some time ;)
Mark
@ Dakota
My point?!... You do know who Jim Larkin was, don't you?
Well I'm sure Dakota is talking about thinking outside the box of what we were all thought in school, and have had ingrained in us since childhood. The veneration of Pearse and friends, the hatred of "the Brits" and anything they may have done.
It is still taboo in Ireland to even speculate what Ireland would have been like had it remained part of the UK. Well for one thing, it would have a functioning health system. The British may love to moan about the NHS, but as I'm currently living in England, I can say it works quite well and doesn't cost you every time you go to the doctor.
Ireland would have properly maintained roads, and maybe a few railways too.
And there would not have been the exodus of Protestants from the countryside after 1922. There is a theory that that might have affected the amount of corruption which has blighted Ireland since.
As for trams, well most cities in the English speaking world ripped them up, but that had a lot to do with interference from the oil companies. Trams use little oil so they had to be gotten rid of. Check out what happened in the USA where General Motors, Firestone Tires and Standard Oil teamed up to buy up a lot of the streetcar lines in the US under the name of Northstar Lines. Then they ran them into the ground and scrapped them, to be replaced by GM buses.
They were found out and reprimanded, but their fine was only $5,000.
@Paul McCoch. Are you having a laugh?? I'm still asking you what your point is??
Speaking of Dublin Trams, Mr McCoch, did you ever hear of William Martin Murphy? "An Irish man" who did more to undermine the Dublin working class then the British ever did?? Did you ever hear of the Catholic Bourgeoisie who were vehmently opposed to the workers during 1913?? Did you ever hear of the Catholic Churchs' viewpoint, which would not allow strikers children recieve financial help from ITGWU members in Britain during the lockout??
I'm not saying the British Empire were perfect, far from it, but please dont insult my intelligence, it says more about you than me.
Dakota
I was talking about Jim Larkins uniting of the Classes, for the political radicalisation of Belfast and Dublin. The non-sectarianism agenda, and I was holding him up and his ideals as a, erm.. Role model for today's youth .
Meanwhile the USA had him jailed, for being a commie agitator IIRC. So much for free speech and the land of the free ay?
Don't forget the railway system too. And while people could maintain that road was replacing rail, I'm not aware that they reefed up all the tracks in the UK... certainly not like they did here.
Yes, the old knee-jerk anti-Brit thing seems to be deeply ingrained in many. How bad do things have to get in our rotten little republic before people question it?
And yes, in my view WW2 was a necessary war. The First was another story altogether... but don't we all know how popular an idea blood sacrifice was back then?
Right, I'm deffo out of McDonalds now!!!!
@ Dakota...
Have you got hold of the wrong end of the stick..or what?
Dear me..
It does amaze me that Irish people don’t talk of the achievements of this country- only glee that they are not ’British’. It’s like a reversal of the RSA calling blacks only by the name ‘non white.’ So Irish people don’t talk of pride in being Irish- instead they Vehemently say they are not British- they’re ‘non- British.’ And as for the British saying sorry… 100yrs after independence? How can modern day British people say they’re sorry for things their distant ancestors did often centuries before? Especially as our Present day leaders have managed to pack more damage and impoverishment into just 100 yrs, than many colonial masters did in centuries ? WHY don’t we ask our own leaders to say SORRY??
The IRA made me feel deeply ashamed…I often said to English / Guernsey people they had no support from me…but I wouldn’t be expecting my great great X 20 times grandchildren to be apologising for their activities!!
What did the British Ever do for me as a NI catholic: Great free healthcare, totally free dentistry till age 19, totally free very good secondary education( a large no go to free grammar shools- often secondaries are V good as well, such as the renowned St Louise’s grammar school, falls rd: ROI has Highest no of privately educated school kids in Europe- I only know of 2 fee paying secondary schools in the north- because it is Just Not necessary to pay privately to get a very good education); good roads- I am safer on the roads there;
Re equality-; there has been much media comment since the 80’s on the rise of the NI catholic yuppie, there are many well educated Catholics, in the North- it’s the NI protestant population that’s falling behind in the education stakes. I often read surveys in Dublin newspapers showing that NI has a far more equal society and More social progression than down here- I have often noted the same.
Also in the UK a rich criminal class would not rob ordinary people, as people here have been for decades since this state was set up. Jeffrey Archer did 2 yrs for perjury: Willie O’Dea was just forced to resign. White-collar criminals rarely go to jail here- that would not happen in the UK. Both the UK and Ireland have a bigger gap between rich and poor than other developed nations- at least the UK recognises this and is slowly trying to do something about it- here people are blindly proud of the country and Refuse to see the serious problems.
Was I glad I grew up in NI? Yes. Am I glad to be living here now? Yes- I have a good job, and I got away from the final remnants of the troubles. But It does frustrate me that people refuse to acknowledge that this country needs a lot to be done to it- Blindly loving your country and Blindly Hating the country that once ran it is Not patriotism. Getting up and doing something about the problems is.
i need to out my name on comment at 2.0- anna
@ Laurence
I love a good laugh and when I read "...and there would not have been the exodus of Protestants from the countryside after 1922. There is a theory that that might have affected the amount of corruption which has blighted Ireland since" I certainly had a good long laugh.
Stop the lights....
@ GM
"Yes, the old knee-jerk anti-Brit thing seems to be deeply ingrained in many".
Don't worry GM. It is balanced out by a collective 'Stockholm syndrome' that we find in many Irish people when it comes to thinking about Britain. ;)
Mark
@Mark 11:53, you obviously did'nt read my post @9.29! MY BASIC POINT IS IRISH WEALTH, not union with Britain. Please try to read this calmly Mark, and see exactly what I'm saying.
My basic premise is that if Ireland did not break from the Union, inevitably there would have been a remarkable transformation in its fortunes, if it took part in WWII OR NOT. Primarily due to the fact, there was the greatest economic boom in history, in Europe, from 1945 onwards. As a corollary to that the basic infrastructure of the state would have been continuously maintained and improved
You have to remember mini economic booms were not alien to Ireland especially when Britain was at war. A section of society did very well out of those times of conflict. An obvious example was the large agricultural boom in Ireland during the first world war, which created great wealth for many Irish farmers.
If for example Homerule was achieved and Irish life settled down into a parliamentary democracy then you and me could be living in vastly different country. An interesting "thought?" Now, this was never achieved so there is no way to prove it one way or the other. But please try to see an alternative point of view! That is "thinking."
As for Northern Ireland, come on, are you genuinely comparing the south of Ireland with the north? I "think" as far as I can make out the problem in the north is a phenomenon known as sectarianism. Not a problem which afflicted southern Ireland to any great extent. Hence what I'm saying is, you could not use the north of Ireland as a measure for wealth in the south. In qualitative parlance your data would be skewed.
In addition the standard of transportation infrastructure in Northern Ireland was vastly superior to that in the south up until the early 00s. Due to large investment from the UK Government. Another interesting fact? Em..
Mark I'm not saying the British empire were not responsible for much of Irelands problems but I can see, unfortunately, equally as bad were the stalworths of Irish society which took over the reigns, from them. Are you disputing that?
@Mark 11:53, also, what are you talking about, whats wrong with integrating buses with trams. Maybe buses are more effective over long distances but why condone pulling up a complete transport network just for the sake of it. As far as I'm aware the Tram system was effective in Dublin City centre. Why pull it up??????
Although the Tram system in Dublin, may had a sordid history, it nevertheless was a good transport network and a gift to a new state. Why destroy it?????? "All most every city pulled them up," where exactly?
Laurence, exactly its a taboo to even mention anything to do with these first decades of the 19th century, in Ireland. Its sad, always the way here, if anyone even raises the subject their intelligence is brought into it. Its sickening. This country doesn't have a good record on Taboos and sweeping things under the carpet. If open debate is stiflted then people suffer. I dont understand people who support TABOOS.
Thinking outside the box Laurence, Emmmm yeah you could call it that, but I really I dispair for Ireland, I really do. It will never change!
Funny thing is, this was something a good friend of mine merly ran by me, just a thought, I have not given my viewpoint on this economic boom one way or the other. I'm just defending a point of view. This says it all.........
Dakota
@Paul McCoch 13:48 Yeah if I knew what stick you were talking about, I'm not a great fan of people talking in riddles. If you have something to say, then say it man! Your reply to me @ 10:49 was not complete? Seemed garbled. I really dont know what you meant.. How you expected me to see what you meant in your explanation @13:46 by your effort @10:49 is silly. Would you be in a bad mood today? Emm?
You may have a point about the states and Jim Larkin but I really dont think you want to debate. Its a good lie down you need.
Dakota
@Mark its a pity I did'nt see your reply to GM @14:43 before I wrote my last post. Its obviously you who is suffering from Stockholm Syndrom. So all further debate unfortunately, would be pointless with you. Honestly if you try to see beyond what was shoveled down your throat at school, then maybe the current reality in Ireland will start to make sense to you.
Have a good day anyway.
Dakota
@Dakota....
I said "@Dakota..Talking of the Trams... Then you'll remember Liverpools son 'Big' Jim Larkin ay?"
You said..... WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
aye?
@Dakota
You say "...if for example Homerule was achieved and Irish life settled down into a parliamentary democracy then you and me could be living in vastly different country. " That is a very big IF and you need to consider the forces at play that stopped it.
You continue "....please try to see an alternative point of view! That is "thinking."
Sorry you appear to be mixing up thinking with dreaming ;)
You continue
"...I "think" as far as I can make out the problem in the north is a phenomenon known as sectarianism."
Yes, but you need to remember that sectarianism was not confined to NI prior to 1922. Ireland under British rule was a sectarian state, and sectarianism was actively encouraged by the British Govt., as a bulwark against any form of unity between Dissenters and Catholics (as was seen in the United Irishmen.
Mark
LOL! Thanks Mark..
Ah come on, its not getting through is it? You really dont like anyone having an alternative viewpoint on this issue do you?
When I say Homerule I mean the continuous uninterupted aspiration which the Nationalist party strived for.
Your point about sectarianism was a reality at the time yeah - MAINLY IN THE NORTH - but not enough to disuade the UK Government from enacting homerule in the south with the Government of Ireland Act 1920 (4th Irish Home Rule Bill). Ironically it was passed in the North as well.
It was there but with a differnt appearance to that which was envisaged by the early work of the Nationalists. As it was sullied by violence, both by Britain and Ireland. The Act created a largely unworkable environment, hence it was replaced by the Irish Free State in 1922. Its hypotetical whether or not Ireland would be any different now, if there was no violence in this early period. Anyway its a thought, ahem a dream.....
Really it could be said that all Irelands modern problems emenated from this period, thats is 1920s onwards, Mark.
Dakota
@Paul McCoch 3:54. LOL,,,,QED!! Look it up....
@Anonymous
I guess you are another who wonders why a statue of a scouser is situated on O'Connell St.. and wonders what the feck he had to do with trams... 'n trains... 'n that
@Paul Mc Coch are you BH? If so then I'm used to you by now, no prob. Please carry on. If not I have to say your either a Twat or your using up your supply of mushrooms today.
Dakota
Garret Fitzgerald said (a few yrs ago- might have been 90th anniversary of rising):” If we had waited a few more years, Britain would have brought in the welfare state, and we wouldn’t have wanted to have left. We got out at the right time!” (Before good free health care, good social services, Free And Legal Contraception, etc could come in!!! – Seriously he said that). He added, “If we had stayed we would probably be 25% better off now.”
I’m puzzled anyone one thinks that it is funny that losing a no of Protestants from the state could have upped the corruption level?
Is this funny- because Protestants are actually known for Being corrupt?
I wouldn’t have thought so- I am told protestant states such as Scandinavia show less corruption. But never mind that:
a Major factor in some messes that occurred post independence was simply one command structure going (British) - and another one just Not coming into place. What else can we make of an amazing fact in the Ryan report- that a school for mentally disabled Never had an inspection in Fifty years? It just wouldn’t have happened under the British- life in the UK is not like Switzerland( ie it doesn’t run like clockwork) yet if something like an inspection is planned to take place at regular intervals (1 or 2 yrs), then it will happen at those times.
I am just puzzled that when people are asked to suggest ways in which Ireland could be better, the repose is defensiveness, comments like Britain is far worse, unexplained laughter ( eg at comments such as above re protestants), and a general impression of ‘No Ireland is really great- look at all we achieved*’ yet these achievements are never spelled out.
Only last night I saw an RTE report advocating a new constitution and a new republic- what did 90 yrs of All Our Own Rule Achieve? Citizens with more debt
( from banker crooks & developers) than any-developed state? Time to stop going up blind alleys- time to protest and change the country ( start tonight- One protest meeting tonight at 7.30 starting at Parnell Sq)
@ Dakota "If not I have to say your either a Twat or your using up your supply of mushrooms today. "
Oh dear!..........
@anna
I think what you are suggesting is, is that Nationalism has had its day (I agree). What you're also saying in my mind is that, its time for the people to dictate what our governments should do, rather than our governments dictate what the people should do( I agree).
The state serves us, we do not serve the state.
Now now folks - be nice to each other! Most of us have more in common than not! Let's keep our fire for our enemies ;-)
Dakota.....
I was agreeing with you.
Anna.....
I think you got the wrong end of the stick with regard to my comments about the exodus of protestants in the 1920's and the high levels of corruption in Ireland.
I was basically echoing the thoughts in an article by Elaine Byrne in the Irish Times of March 31st, 2009. Will 10% more Protestants lead to less corruption?
Not available on the IT site anymore, but can be read on Elaine Byrne's own website, http://elaine.ie/?p=122
A positive correlation exists between Catholicism and corruption. Political science literature and academic research suggests that the more Protestant the population, the less corrupt the country. Divergent views on sin and loyalty account for this corpulent assertion....
.......Catholicism is a hierarchical religion. The Catholic Church places emphasis on the inherent weakness and shortcomings of human beings, their inability to escape sin and the consequent need for the church to be forgiving and protecting.
The clergy, as mediators between mankind and God, facilitate, via confession, the possibility to be absolved of guilt. As laid down by the Council of Trent, priests have this authority “because that our Lord Jesus Christ, when about to ascend from earth to heaven, left priests his own vicars, as presidents and judges . . . in order that, in accordance with the power of the keys, they may pronounce the sentence of forgiveness or retention of sins”.
On the other hand, the egalitarian organisation typical of Protestantism believes that individuals are personally responsible for avoiding sin rather than relying upon the institutional forgiveness of the church. Protestant culture is less understanding when lapses from grace occur.
The institutionalisation of virtue and the compulsion to cast out the wicked is underlined more explicitly.
The implication therefore is that Protestants are less inclined to commit a sin because they do not have the same faculty of achieving pardon as Catholics do...........
...........In Treisman’s 2000 cross national study, for example, the University of California professor contends that countries with a Protestant tradition, a history of British rule and a developed economy are less corrupt.
In his comparison between Ireland and Denmark, he suggests that if Ireland had an additional 5-10 per cent Protestant population, our corruption rating would be that of Denmark’s, which has consistently been in the top five least corrupt countries in the world since polling began.
Although methodological issues arise regarding the Transparency International Corruption Perception Index, it serves to illustrate this broad point. Take Europe as an example. Over the past 13 years, the least corrupt countries have been our northern European Protestant neighbours, Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark. The Catholic countries of southern Europe have wavered in the ranks of the most corrupt in Europe.
Although geographically in the North, Ireland shares many characteristics with the South. Ireland, Italy, Portugal and Spain have traditionally been distinguished by clannish catch-all parties and entrenched centre- periphery politics.
Just a theory however. Wasn't Paisley Junior caught out in some dodgy dealing a few years back. Not to mention the Robinsons.
GM have to say this was the strangest day on the blog so far! By a mile. The Corpo must have put something in the water. Strange day but good fun....
Laurence, never said you did'nt. Dont know where you got that from.
Greattt to know there is sooooo many nice guys on this blog... strange but harmless, I think. No no sorry I dream.
Paul WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE???!!!! Hope your well sooooooooonnnnnn.
Dakota
Dear Lawrence , no I totally agreed with your point about a higher % of protestants leading to less corruption...it was someone else who seemed to think this was incredibly comical, and i was was just wondering why? ie Why was the person so amused? I met someone from NI who was deeply involved in the recent election. THis person was involved with a small neutral party- and he said the DUP seemed V keen on brown envelopes. I was shocked but the DUP- like SF is a party based on Fear- nothing more- so you never Will have the best people in such flimsy parties.
John Mc Gahern said when he was growing up in the 30's this country seemed to be in Shock at being independent- very true. And i think Now there is a great deal of Anger- hopefully constructive as many people are asking now Why things are not better for the country after so many years of independence....and hopefully now people will demand decent government.
@Anna12:09. I would'nt hold your breath. The way parties are alined here its not conducive to good government. All vested interest groups dont care one way or the other either. Not to mention the voting public, 40% of whom voted FF back in some time ago. The cycle will start all over again. Give it a few years.
Dakota
Hope we're all better today??
Wow what about the great multitude storming the barricades at the la bastille de dail last night?? I knew the water was spiked!! Hey 40 nearly got over the gates. It could have been the flowers on the lawn that got it.
I bet they put the heart cross ways in Mr cowman. He could have choked on his M and S caviar. Dont you people remember poor mr Bush nearly croked it when his pretzel went down the wrong way?
Hey did anyone see prime time last night ironic that they did a piece on Iceland at the same time de Dail was been stormed! The Prime Time team said Iceland already had their bank enquiry and they can now put it behind them. This is very interesting no? Didnt they have mega protests at the same time as the crisis? Does all this sound familar? It all comes down to Irish timing I have to say. If the people protested when this crisis started then the individuals responsible would be sharing soap in the shower by now.
Grand little country. Alls well that ends well in the emerald isle.
Dakota
'Dail stormed by angry protestors'...a headline to savour....(Metro 12.5.10)
a serial I hope will run and run...
I would have been there, but i had a serious meeeting to attend...I'll be at the next dail storming..
Ireland is chnging..
however slowly
Hi all. Here I am back in McDonalds again. Glad to see you're all feeling better. And what's this about the Dail being stormed!!! At least 40 fellow malcontents out there so!
Anna, Dakota, Laurence: This corruption thing came up a while ago, unfortunately the original link is not there tho... I think it's part of the IT subscription thingie now, so even if the link was there, it wouldn't be any use.
That's true Paul. Think the Larkin Connolly connection shows the commonality of us ordinary folk both in Britain and Ireland.
http://gombeennation.blogspot.com/2009/03/be-corrupt-as-you-like-but-be-contrite.html
oh dear, social unrest in the country, about f..king time too.
Dakota, agree about that water and also Dakota, Paul, Lawrence, seems to me if you are having a pop at somebody it should be Mark, not eachother.
Ah GM. Lets not mention Jim Larkin at the moment it might start it off again.
It was the side gate they got in.. Mr Gard and Gardette joined arms and went to town. Lucky Mr Robocop wasnt there... Oh be gob...theres a rematch next week.
Butch the gold fish is getting all excited.
Dakota
On the % Protestant thing.
Before we introduce tax breaks to encourage more Protestants to move down here is it worth reading Treisman’s 2000 paper. Elaine Byrne does what some naughty academics do and ignores the bits of the paper that don't fit with the article.
Treisman says "...the proportion of Protestants appears to have a small but significant effect: an additional 5–10% of the population that was Protestant, would reduce a country’s corruption rating by one-tenth of a point."
Note that Treisman says 'small'. To put it in context Ireland's score improved by three tenths from 2008-9 - from 7.7 to 8.
Treisman also discusses a number of possible reasons for the effect (including the one Elaine Byrne mentions) but favours Lipset and Lenz explanation and gives them the last word in the section devoted to protestantism with this quote
‘‘Protestantism reduces corruption, in part, because of its association with individualistic, non-familistic relations.’’
The theory goes that individualistic societies with smaller families have less corruption because a lot of corruption is about doing inappropriate favours for family members and people you know. It follows that if you have small families and know fewer people then corruption will be less for purly mathematical reasons.
Lipset and Lenz see protestantism as a marker for these sorts of societies, which dominate northern Europe.
Kate
Thats interesting Kate. I did'nt read Treisman myself might be a good read all the same.
On the individualistic society thing, individualism and the lack of the prodestant work ethic must be fundamental as to why Ireland is so unique among northern european countries. IMO the type of individualism which is present in prodestantism is far more palatable than tribalism, which is very much part of modern day Ireland. Into this Irish mix you have to add a sense of post modern individualism. The combination creates IMO a society which favours cronyism.
Also in my opinion Ireland is at a tipping point now but as always the way here, nothing will intrinsically change, it will just get worse and the threshold for corruption, croynism and that uniquely Irish atmosphere which encourages same, will be pushed to a higher level. The corruption here is profoundly deep.
On a different aspect of all that, GM...they are saying now theres a possibility that the EU will have to approve budget decisions here now. Wonderful isnt it? That could get interesting/nasty? Then again maybe not....
Oh yeah that little thing at the Versaille Palace on Kildare St, that was all a storm in a tea cup, GM. Seemingly someone pushed someone else in through the side gate. Could have been a dare, who knows? They were all chasing each other around the carpark. Lovely....Yeah and I have a bottle of the water from that day, must get it analysed.
Dakota
@Dakota
Don't want to question your particular experience but I have to say IMO the general view that Irelend is worst than other countries is apocryphal.
For what it is worth Ireland fares well in Transparency International's 2009 survey of corruption.
http://media.transparency.org/imaps/cpi2009/
(This is worth a look if just to experience a nice web tool)
Kate
Nice Map Kate. Although the map only provides a colour code, a unit of measure and a number key. It is interesting and obviously gives a sense of percieved proportion. Just a coulpe of things though, whos perception is it? Is it host country or other countries respondents who were surveyed?
Em, Ireland is at 8 units the UK is 7.7, the US is 7.5 and Germany at 8 I assume that means Ireland is more transparent than both the U.K and US and on a par with Germany. I find that hard to believe.
Also Kate when you say apocryphal? I would'nt say that at all. You see Kate the way I see it, its the incessent culture which passes under the radar in Ireland and hence is not published in any survey which is the underlying problem! How do you measure an atomsphere or a subtle nuance, a nod or a wink? As far as I'm aware its not possible to do so. Or is the survey just a measure of official statistics?
Its nice to have such optimism, I had it once then I bought a car..
Have a good day.
Dakota
@ Mark/Kate.
With regard to the question of corruption and clientism, it is only necessary to live in Ireland to witness it first hand. In terms of slipping fivers to policemen/women Ireland ranks well though.
I am aware of the report you mention, but I am also aware of others (or even the same one) that back up day-to-day evidence of high-levels of clientism. I can't be bothered to search them out now (as I am sitting in McDonalds and only have so much time), but I'm sure other readers can do so I they feel inclined. Or they can just refer to the numerous examples on the blog and the Irish record of re-voting in corrupt politicians.
Finally. The only thing I ask from people commenting on the blog is that they use one name/identity.
I would ask that you respect this.
@ Dakota. Exactly! Thanks for the updates from home, by the way.
JESUS!!!!! I go away for a week to a nice quiet signal free part of Tasmania and what do I find upon my return to Gombeen Nation? There's blood seeping out under the blog door and inside, bodies everywhere. There's Dakota's over there in the corner in a white knuckled strangle death clinch with Paul. There's Anna'a and Ella's footprints in the blood - looks like they made it out alive. Here's Mark, well it's a bit hard to tell from this angle especially with that axe damage. I thought he wasn't coming back anymore. Oh shit - there's a pool of Lawrence's blood next to the emergency exit. Wow - what the feck went on in here. (Flips back through the posts for the answer - finds it) Ah boys oh boys it's the same auld shenanigans that always gets us het up. Ireland's woes and their pathological antecedency. Jim Larkin, an Phiarsach, Dev, The Catlick Church agus all the rest of our big heavy rucksacks full of historical baggage. Next time try discussing Ireland's future without opening that stinky repository of old socks. A sailing analogy if you will - look over the bow for what's coming your way and not over the stern for what you've missed. Hugs and kisses and a speedy recovery to all
Thanks Dr PB all this optimism is making me feel all warm and fuzzy. Oh hold on that could be the water.....
Dakota
Sorry Dakota - i forgot to mention that i found a severed arm in there with erin go brath tattoed on it - Not yours by any chance HA HA xx Dr P
Dr P You dont by any chance get Irish water over there do you? Your missing all the fun.
Ohhh the arm wondered where it went...
Praise Be!!
Dakota (Phd)
The McDonalds punters are looking at us laughing away here Ponyboy, Dakota.
Hi GM, I echo your sentiments, in fact PB and Dakota, I have not laughed so much in years, great commentary. In fact best comments on the blog to date.
I don’t like arguing- I like this blog for highlighting things that are wrong- so they will show in searches- and STAY live . And people can propose solutions. But to people like Kate I say, Ireland can look well on some transparency/ lack of corruption indices- simply because certain data is presented late/ not reported at all/ HEAVILY distorted!(!!!) / swept under the carpet. ( 1 glaring example was a school for disabled children which never Did have any reports of adverse conditions -simply because NO reports were done in 50 yrs). And here’s a question I’ll answer in a minute- What’s a CPO?
I got the gist of Derek Brawns highly scholarly book ‘Irelands’ house party’. DB said he was Much frustrated by a lack of stats on housing completions, who owned what land, what the True no of sales in particular estates were etc…he said a country like the USA would have this info in a Monthly bulletin for each county/ state/ region etc. That kind of info is easily accessed in most Western countries - not here.
13 yrs ago when I came to Dun L some kind of planning enquiry was going on ( sort of!), as to who really owned land at the Cherry Wood development, on Stillorgan dual carriage way. This was complicated, never really understood it , did it ever conclude, but the ? the judge Wanted answered Was : WHO owned Jackson Way Properties, owner of Cherry wood? Went on forever, seemed like it was 2 yrs. Judge kept asking- was told it was an English co. I wondered- if a judge asks those ?s in court of so called ethical Irish business ( not drug dealers) why keep fudging the issues? Why is this info not freely available in Land registry? So Patriots & comrades, it is perfectly OK for an allegedly English registered co to own Ireland’s green lands and plan developments on it- with us knowing who One of the directors/ developers were. This did not seem normal ( to me) for a developed western country- and FO’T says since the creation of the state various rich interests have turned back transparency in land ownership. FO’T also says developers bought huge swathes of land around Dublin since the 60’s ( and probably were able to conceal their identity ). This meant in the 90’s when more people Were in the country and new housing Initially Was needed they could charge what they liked. Jackson’s Way shows that only too clearly- in recent yrs turns out it was owned by Liam Carroll. At that same time the Stillorgan dual carriageway was widened. I was told the Portuguese embassy held it up for years. Embassy is well back from ( widened rd) and still has a spacious gdn.( I don’t know if its Portuguese owned by the way , or native Irish ) I idly wondered : Why was it not CPO’d.
( Compulsory Purchase Ordered). Councils & Government uses them all over NI and UK. And if your farm is Meath is CPO’d for a new prison , forget about getting 25 million- you’ll get a reasonable price - no more.
I left home 30 yrs ago & rented in Guernsey/ N I/ England for 17 yrs. Rented in Dun L for 10.5 yrs . (Missing yrs 2006-2008, I bought a house in NI which I still have). I had 3 residences in Dun L in 9 yrs before I
began commuting - and took landlords to the Small Claims court Twice to get my deposit back : First (millionaire) landlord was a developer- after 4.5 yrs he made me homeless as he thought he’d make a killing on my flat in 2001. The 2nd Millionaire only gave me ½ my deposit when I left for NI- it later turned out he owed lots to tax people.
I moved back here in May 2009- and for a variety of reasons: unsuitable premises, Unstable landladies etc I am now in my 5th house since then- and I am about to send a Third claim form off to the Private Tenancy Board : Two landladies Have Ignored all requests to get my deposit back.
And the Other…..After I had sub let in Summer 2009 from vicious drunken Janie in North Dublin ( don’t ask) I decided to lease a small bungalow in my favoured district - I could control who I lived with.
On viewing, I said to the So Called - Self Styled Top Notch Irish Estate Agent Susie ,I prefer a house with garden- and that always leaves extra rooms to fill- and (as 2 bedroom house don’t really come up), I was fine with 3 bedrooms: in fact I had rented a bungalow on the Same street before I went away, liked the street and always picked the right co tenants . Susie said she’d explain this to the owner H, a woman in her 6o’s. House belonged to H’s deceased father. Susie said H had only wanted One more room to be rented out. Later S phoned saying all was OK, it was fine to move in. ( My 2 aunts died a few yrs ago. They lived near my mum, and we have happy memories of being with them - but don’t mind who my cousin has in now - provided they are clean, decent, non Satanists, Shinners, DUP worshippers etc - it’s different times for my aunts home).
It was Nov 2009- and Impossible to rent rooms in this 55 yr old home-Then I saw the Reality of Oversupply of Shiny New homes in Ireland.
I advertised and advertised- I was paying 1200 pm. But after 3 weeks Hyacinth O’Bucket, the owner phoned and put me out of my worry:
“We couldn’t BELIEVE it when we saw it on Daft,” she said in her faux English accent,“ Susie said you’d get a Colleague in.” ( DID she now!!!) Practically made out I was a Knacker who had lied about my profession and income ;“ We thought you could COVER the rent!!!”
(I could have had a new flat for 900, but didn’t do that: I dislike living alone: Yes- I Was going to pay 1200 - on my own- just for an average 55 yr old house! The main attraction was it was on a street I had loved living on before )….Cue more contemptuous, Withering abuse.
I said I didn’t know what to do. H O’B said in contemptuous faux English tones .“YOU will not be making any decisions on what to do.” Hung Up. Heard no more for 12 hrs- thankfully I took that as a way out and texted saying I moving out a week early. I think H O’B just didn’t want the neighbours to know she was renting the house : my dear the horror of it!!! As if any of them were even about after 55 yrs- and Susie had just lied about my intentions to close the deal.
Ok I got deposit, but when I asked for 400 euros for the week I wasn’t there, nothing. I had to stay in a hostel , pay for a removal man, pay for a storage facility , + wages cost of 5 days off work to house hunt. So I’m asking 400 Euros from Hyacinth O’Bucket and moving costs from Renowned Irish Estate Agent. I’m not vindictive- but You Don’t Treat People Like That.
I’d be glad, if I got 100- 200 Euro out of it- I’m just making a point. I have 3 tenants in NI. I’m nice to them- they’re buying me a house, after all. What’s my point?? Well- WWYGI?? I Never had problems with landlords in NI, Guernsey or England. There is a greedy rich class here- and the exploitation shows in every area- the Housing Bubble is just a magnified form of simple tales above. ( tho Greed is in every area, Not just housing).
No, No room for complacency - As Ireland reaches Its century- I say - ‘Could do better,’ Carry on indignant bloggers, your country needs you.
Hushed tones, bells, distant chants; Has Gombeen Man ever had any miracles ascribed to him yet, maybe not?? I’m willing to vouchsafe for one; My ENT problems last had me in hospital 5 yrs ago with a drip ( an IV one, not an annoying person). I gave my tonsils One more chance. They blew it - I have been off work in pain for 5 days (So while I hope to be there for my birthday in October- they wont be, soon as I can arrange a tonsillectomy in the North they are gone).
But I thought I was managing the current illness well with conventional/ natural medicine. Today I thought I was better, was settling down to sleep- but the pain returned. Gave up trying. Clicked on light and Gombeen Nation. And then noticed pain was gone. Hallelujah. Wow. Gombeen Nation Is good for you. Thanks
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