Thursday, 11 February 2010

“Going! Going! ...Erm, not gone". €4 million site “makes” only €0.5 million at auction.

There was a time when any lucky property owner in Ireland – in possession of their own house, their own land, an investment or an accident-of-birth/death inheritance, could have Great Expections when setting off for the auction - hoping each successive bid would be Pipped by another higher offer.  Now it’s more like Hard Times… and it’s not Bounderby any better for some time yet.*

An auctioneer put a 91-acre site in Tipperary up for grabs last Monday, which included included “top-class” land and a substantial range of machinery. The asking price was €4 million. Now, while I don’t know much about agricultural land - except that it sometimes contains cows and sheep – and know even less about this particular site, that kind of asking price does sound sooo 2006 to me.

According to The Irish Times, the auctioneer’s opening four-mill gambit was met with “stony silence” in the bidding room, and attracted only one offer of €500,000 after five minutes of desperate cajoling. The property was withdrawn and the bidder was invited to “private negotiations”.

The auction had, according to the article,  attracted “significant interest, as it was expected to provide an indications of the current state of the property market and to land values.”

Now, how much are we being  made pay for NAMA?

* Two Dickens novels and their characters were grieviously harmed in the writing of this blog.

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Anna said...

Four million is 44,000 an acre. In 1987- the price of agricultural land was @ 1,000 an acre in Ireland, that’s an increase of X 44 in 23 years.
500,000 is approx 5500 per acre, = X 5.5 times from 23 yrs ago, seems reasonable. It’s revealing that first they would try for the con artist price- the same with rented houses in Dublin- the tendency for Greed is to let them stay 6 months+ on the DAFT website, rather than reduce the price.
What’s wrong here is simply a 90-year con trick, that’s gone on since the creation of this state. Yes maybe the founding fathers Did care a bit about the ordinary working class & DID have some interest in improving their lot.
I always find it impressive Ireland has the Right to join a trade union written into the constitution (memories of the 1910 Dublin Lock Out would still have been raw when that was written- and don’t forget Ireland is the only country that ever forced Mc Donalds to recognize trade unions)
Likewise the poverty of the nation meant there were great union leaders in the early C20. But ever since then? Slowly the greedy scum bag class gained control. Things people needed like land just to simply live their lives on, and professional services (medicine, dentistry, law) were often under control of a rich elite. . So they could demand what they liked for all these services.
F O’T says developers started buying Huge swathes of land around Dunlin Even in the sixties, so decades later they could influence the development of a Whole city-And Demand huge prices for the land.
The Celtic tiger saw the greedy reveal their claws- most of the wealth went to the greedy & rarely a few pennies for ordinary people. As Fintan O ‘Toole said in his book Ship of Fools, the no of people who couldn’t afford housing in those years was Exactly equal to the unaffordable empty properties on the market. And Hardly a council house built in that time- while in the So-called Rich years, the no of homeless/ those on council housing lists Sky rocketed!
Says it all for the scumbag politicians who rule us-and their rich buddies.
The most infuriating thing tho is how passive ordinary people are.
In earlier years however, this country had limited educational resources.
Even up till the ‘sixties it was legal to leave after primary school level in Ireland: the primary school Cert was only abolished in 1971.
(You would not have got that in 1 other country in Northern Europe)
And these people who never made it to secondary level are only retiring now. Also in the early seventies you could have left school at 14, and even up till 2000 the school leaving age was only Officially brought up to 16 then- you could have left at 15 up to then.
Even now, about 20% don’t make it to Leaving cert- leaving school at Junior cert with just 3 yrs secondary education- the worst early leaving stats in Europe.
HOWEVER finally most school kids are getting up to Leaving cert level, and I hope that gets reflected in voting decisions
Its worth reading F O’T-the prophet of the revolution-as he gives a very clear and quick analysis of the shocking plunder of the tax money of ordinary people by a totally unchecked and amoral elite of this state.
It does make you want to get the entire ordinary population and shake them for allowing this decades long plunder to go on:. Rich bankers sun themselves in Marbella- while your children and elderly die on waiting lists?
I do believe a lot of the problem was that until recently ordinary people had limited educational opportunities - after all, it ‘s a lot easier to fool people, some of whom NEVER saw the inside of a secondary school. Anna

The Gombeen Man said...

Thanks for the info and stats, Anna. Shocking.

I do think the Irish are, in general, a very docile, parochial and conservative lot. The closest most of them get to "rebellion" is singing a few anti-Brit ditties near closing time ("rebel" songs my arse). But we were hardly ever encouraged to think for ourselves, with poor education and rote learning. But no coincidence.

I'm going to get that book this weekend - deffo

Anonymous said...

If it were a normal farm the €500,000 is much more in line with these figures for 04/05:

Oct-Dec 2004 €18,406 per hectare - £678k for the farm
Jan-Mar 2005 €16,230 per hectare - £598k for the farm

However, The Irish Times has it being sold to a stud farm for “a good bit less than €3 million” I would take this to mean it made more than €2 million.

Anonymous said...

But sure doesn't everyone love to sing anti-Brit songs?? If you find yourself in a country where they don't hate the Brits it think you'll find you are in Britain.

Best quote I heard in a long time was from Nigel Lawson on Question time recently - An old Arab saying:
'It is better to be Britain's enemy than her friend, because when you are her enemy they buy you, but when you are her friend they sell you.'

Fair play to Nigel Lawson who was honest enough to admit that (as Homer Simpson would say) it is funny 'cause it is true.

Max, London

FreeState51 said...

That's frightening!

Get Smart said...

Anna very interesting reading and very true. The problem is no matter how big a scumbag these politicians are people still keep voting for them.
Estate Agents/auctioneer’s are up there in the list of scumbags after Politicians,Clergy and Bankers.
In this case the price is inflated out of any reality hoping some mug will buy and they get their commission would it be 2% on 4 million?

Anna said...

The reason this Ireland PLC was set up (evidently) was so that a rich elite could cream off millions – while the bulk of the people remained too undereducated for decades to stop them. Irish working people are suffering as never before …under their own scum leaders… why I think this country should be twinned with Zimbabwe.
Oh, and the defining feature of being Irish was to Hate the British… other achievements necessary… such as creating a decent caring society.
Why not? All the other 6+ billion people on earth do…. Mmm well somehow I Never hear this view of Wholescale Hatred of the British from any other nationality …its amazing some people fasten on any anti British comment as ‘proof’ of how much the British are hated.
I think this is because earlier generations were poorly educated- more so than in NI.
I am a NI catholic and often when I lived in Guernsey and England I was Amazed at the stupidity and the Anti British hatred- of the Southern Irish, and those I met were very often university students or at least had the Leaving Cert . Britain Once had an empire- long since waned, which did evil things to many counties it invaded. As many other European nations did( I gather Belgian colonists in the Congo as recently as the 50s(?) though nothing of chopping off the hand of a servant alleged to have stolen).
British colonial hold on many nations faded a long time ago. In any case Why exactly would you Hate the British living Now for things their ancestors did decades, even centuries ago?

Anna said...

I knew people in the North who lost relatives in the troubles, sometimes to the security forces- I did not hear this venom even from them.
I always found this marked a Huge difference between N and S Irish people I met aboard.
It wasn’t just that NI has a good education system -at least I got enough education not to believe blind hatred unthinkingly…Yes people can say look at the decades of the troubles…believe me it often happens…a whole population can be held hostage by just small no of the blood thirsty, be they Republican, Unionist or at times security forces )..but I came to believe this nonsense was imbibed with mother’s milk .
EG.: I once knew a family who had lived in Chicago till the ‘70s, then they came to NI with their five children. The mother was from NI, the father from Cork & they settled around the west side of NI. I bumped into a daughter, Vera after the Warrenpoint bomb in 1979. She’d been at a summer sports camp with a young English girl, Andrea. They stayed in touch, and after the bomb she wrote to Andrea “It was really Funny, there was big bomb here, and 18 soldiers died.” Andrea replied that she wasn’t laughing, one of them was her brother. Vera laughed this off to me,
“ Oh I had to write and apologise.” Nothing like, I was terribly ashamed. And this was a 16 year old at one of the best schools in the north- even a good education didn’t seem to lessen the effect of 1 parent from down here. My best friends cousin, a girl of 11, was shot dead by the British army ( tho my friend though it was an accident)- I’d never have heard bile like that from my friend.
Another muppet at my work in Dublin said he was in a San Francisco bar, as an 18-year-old student when he heard of that bomb. Naturally all his Irish student friends and Irish American friends Cheered. As You do.
In F O’Ts book, an English journalist in the 1890’s; asked a Sinn Fein member
,”What do you want to achieve?.” The answer was ‘Vingince, Bejaysus!’
The activities of the IRA did nothing but make me ashamed. As John Hume said
the IRA killed more NI Catholics than loyalists or the security forces. (Yes I knew Loyalists killed 1000 +) Comments like the last post, convince me that this country has a Huge way to go in creating a decent education system, and mature grown up people - I used to hear this hate filled bile even from UCD student I met in Guernsey. The Cream of the Irish education system. Not every soldier in the north was a miscreant. A lot were young men escaping the dole queues. And don’t forget the ordinary English people blown up in England. And the 2 yr old and 12 yrs old boys blown up in Warrington. Is all this not Vingince enough, bejaysus? Well, they were all English and the English are hated the world over- for the crimes of the long departed British empire. In contrast, We Irish are Loved the world over…so why is it so many in my work say, ‘We’d be better off if the British had never left’?
* For one thing the British senior fraud office is now after Sean Fitzpatrick, head of Anglo Irish Bank, while we say,”Oh that’s all right Seanie, we’ll just starve our Children’s hospitals to pay for your crimes?”- Anna

Anonymous said...

Max. If theres a bandwagon rolling the Irish will hate anyone never mind the British, just to jump on board. 90 years of independence just to end up where you started. LOL, thats Ireland.

The Gombeen Man said...

Ah yes. Let's all just "hate the Brits" - even if we make our comments from there (Max) - and let our lot of indigenous toerags rob us blind. But hey, we're on the one road, begob! No wonder there's no hope.

Reminds me of the drunk in Angela's ashes going over to Coventry to work and singing "rebel" songs about Kevin Barry and the "800 years"... and being ignored for the eejit he was.

Jasus change the record.

Anonymous said...

You are right to be concerned when a rich elite cream off the best for themselves and leave most of us with the leftovers, but don't assume it is an Irish thing, welcome to western capitalism.

I know Ireland is new to the game but we have had this here in Britain for ages - we call them the upper classes.

Anna contends that Ireland has a poor education system, well I wish Britain had one as good a one. Our schools are unbelievably bad. We do have some very good ones but they are for the elite – Eaton and the like.

The best chance ordinary Brits have of a good education is to get into a church run school, and sorry GM but Catholic ones are some of the best.

Our university system is the same. Very good ones at the top for the elite and a very mediocre mid section, so much so that we compare very badly internationally when you look at the proportion of our uni students who get to uni and get good degrees.

We are well behind Ireland on the university education league tables, which is probably one reason why so many hard nosed high tech US companies set up there.

Max, London

Ella said...

Hi GM, lots of interesting and informative comments here. Anyway..

As stated in The Irish Times "it was expected to provide an indications of the current state of the property market and to land values.”

well it has done that alright, would vendors please note and drop their prices accordingly to reflect the market. Would the government please stop interfering with the property market.

The Gombeen Man said...

Ah, the upper classes. And wasn't W.M. Murphy one of the greatest bourgeois Irish exponents of independence. And the country has been ruled by a golden circle with unfettered access to those in the Dail ever since, with clientism being an accepted part of the Irish body politic.

One thing for the British, at least when their politicians are found out, they resign (or are forced to). Or even get jail. Let's wait until that happens in our "republic", eh?

As far as education goes, NALA and the OECD classify 25% of our population as lacking basic literacy and numeracy skills. Admittedly,42% of the 25-34 age group went on to third-level education, which is higher than the EU average. But what is the quality of that education, with take up in science and technology subjects still not what it should be to attract investment... which is only strong due to corporate tax incentives, let's not kid ourselves.

Also, as the Irish Times list of feeder schools for 2009 shows, those in working class areas of Dublin are still largely excluded from this happy bandwagon. The self-perpetuating nature of the Irish class system is depressing.

On the subject of attainment in science and tech subjects - the latest is that there is a campaign to improve the quality of teaching in such subjects at second level, including the requirement for teachers to be "properly qualified".

Though I lived in London for 9 years, I have no experience of the schools there. But I have had here, and I don't need to read a study to say my Catholic-run school's quality of teachers/teaching was very poor. But at least that's the only trauma I suffered at their hands.

@ Ella. Yes, that's the thing. But the Elite, through NAMA and various interventionist measures, are doing what they can to keep prices reaching market value. Don't remember that in the London crash of the late 80's. But that's the nature of things in Ireland.

Anna said...

I got a British education in NI and was Fed up of people - without any promoting- jeering and telling me I had the worse education on earth.
In your face rudeness- from people who can’t produce clear facts is one of the worst things about life here.
So I knocked off a few Leaving Cert Passes; I1, over 3 yrs.( 9 H + 2O..first time I did it wasn’t sure what to expect so I did a lot at ordinary level- but as I got all As in these I deduce that would translate to honours.
Results: Ord: A1, A1, A2, A2, D2, C2, Hon:B1,C2,C2,D2, D2
O= I only went to 1 night class- maths- for about 18 classes. The only 2 subjects I got low O grades in were maths ( D2) and chemistry (C2)- I had resoundingly failed these as GCSE 20 yrs before.
Inspired by my success , I did GCSE maths again 5 months after LC( you can do some GCSE/ A level exams at 3 points in the year).
With LC maths I Know I only got 1 question right in its entirety on Paper 1, out of about 7 ( you can get your answers back after the exam ). Each Q was in 3, increasingly hard parts. I only did the simple part 1 on each and just guessed at the other bits- eg I just drew a graph even if I did not know what to put there. OK on paper 2 there was stuff I knew - so I got 68% - and 48% for paper 1!
GCSE maths had 25 Q per paper- and Every one had to be answered making sure you covered the entire curriculum. No picking and choosing the easy bits- that’s why the fail rate some years can be 40%.
No giving marks for just attempting parts of the question.
Anyway , 4 months after passing the LC, I failed GCS E maths for the 3rd time. I got 25% on paper but not so well on paper 2 - 18%. I give up now- and won’t do it again unless I pay for private tuition for a year.
As for the chemistry exam this was just 1 paper, 2.5 hours long ( GCSE is 2 papers and a lot of course work). I left after 1.5 hrs after writing down all I knew- and writing out all the equations in words, not symbols. The same scientific approach that earned me 25% in GCSE in 1989. Got a C at LC ord.
Oh some of my honour grades could have been better- both Agriculture Science and Home economics demanded course work which I didn’t have , so I lost 15-20% of the marks. Still got Hon C2 and D2 I think. As for the D2 in Honours French- that’s down to me failing it as GCSE in 1977. Yes I Did got to a class since- a basic 1yr French beginners class thru my public service job. How did I do all that? Just learn what’s on the exam paper. With English ( Hon b1) I only read 1 book., made sure the other 3 were available as DVD. but as the LC is so based on rote learning, and I have a good memory that works well in the short term, it came down to me giving each subject 6-8 weeks on my 40 mins bus ride to work each day- only really read the texts in the months before the exams. I also knocked off a few subjects such as economics that I had never done at school - or college.
I Never said Irish education was poor- change is needed. People think the LC is hard . It is not that it is intellectually difficult- there is often too much rote learning for that- it is difficult because it is simply unfair. High points are needed for some courses - and why? Because the idiot Government doesn’t provide enough college places-oh and don’t forget, you have a Great chance of getting high points if you go to a private school, ( Ireland has the highest no of privately educated school kids in Europe) UCD and Trinity have the largest number of their students from private schools , at Queens in Belfast about 100% are from state funded schools- Anna

Anna said...

i don't mean to be rude about education here- But It had always Beat me as to how people here believe nonsense/ put up with so much, therefore I did wonder about it. I am being Polite- my other alternative is to believe there must be lots of idiots about?
Ireland has the Shortest secondary cycle in the western world- 5yrs-as an extra yr at primary and transition year is unnecessary. Hence Huge drop out rates at 3rd level.- 5 yrs is not enough for college entry
People solemnly say ‘That’s because there is a big Jump between LC and college work”: Really? If you are at school till age 18/19 - a big age- how then are you not better prepared for college. Also if the LC is that good- then how are you not better prepared for college.
Subject choice is lower than other EU countries. Here is bit unique not teaching computer studies as a school subject at school ( apart from ECDL)
Many people here believe “Íf you don’t get into college here , you’ll get in, in England.’ It is hard to get into some courses here due simply to lack of places
But often you won’t get on a top level degree in England with middling LC passes ( in fact I doubt if Ordinary passes should be allowed for a challenging degree - my experience was that an ordinary pass below a B would be a rock bottom fail at GCSE).
Two-thirds of Irish students in England are not on degree courses- when I did HND in England there were a lot of Southern Irish on my course. Southern Irish students are the largest foreign group after the Chinese at English colleges- because the government here doesn’t provide enough places. Yet another reason to hate the British- they provides college places for us.
British education went up for most of the C20- then inexplicably downwards at times since the ‘70s.
There were many ups and downs: In UK/NI leaving at primary level must have been abolished before the ‘20s- at least before the 40’s as the leaving age was 14 then. Around 1948 it went up to 15. In 1974, it went up to 16.
As secondary starts at age 11-12, UK kids who leave at 16 have 5 yrs education & are up to GCSE level - roughly like LC Ord- it is not Junior cert as people here think. There Was a JC exam-also done after 3 yrs & abolished in 1974- as no-one was going to be allowed to leave after 3 years anymore.
The grammar school act of the 1945 provided free grammar schools for many. I think initially secondary schools were not great but they improved. Anyway why send kids to an academic school when they won’t thrive if they are not academic,
Inexplicably England changed many grammar schools to huge comprehensives since the 70s and this has caused variable results. VERY Bad social policy also- the Conservatives left hugely impoverished under class - with V low expectations. Also Evidently training academic & non academic together does not work. It’s true private & church schools can produce some of the best results. But the results are not as bad as people here think. A level/ GCSE exams are sat worldwide in 80 countries. In some African countries they seem to be the main system.
Certainly they need to rethink some educational policy- 40% fail at GCSE maths shows some kids are not academic- evidently different school skills need to be studied, However a rigorous fail rate shows that UK education is not as ‘dumbed down ’ as people here want to believe. Ireland has a fail rate of just 10% at LCO Maths- and my experience showed that everything from B downwards should have been a fail. In fact I never saw a more dumbed down exam than the LC ( Ord)-at its Lowest pass levels- I should Never have passed Maths and Chemistry.

Anna said...

Education is a huge subject - so I don’t want to waste much of anyone’s time. However I do Have an Interest in it-would you like to go to a new country and be provoked and told how dumbed down your education was - by people who had never even sat an exam in it?
My 2 qualified nurse friends- 1 from NI.,, 1 from London , were also bemused when they were put on Student nurse pay in Dublin. Incidentally I often read NI has far better social progression than here. NI still has grammar schools- a lot of large secondary’s are good as go my school in Newry had southern Irish students. Now a boy’s grammar in Newry has a lot of southern Irish students. Meantime Sinn Fein Nut Catriona Ruane is abolishing the Grammar schools- and has No plan to replace them.; Havoc is being caused and she is opposed by all parents, catholic parents & grammar schools among them. All parties oppose her- but SF gave her a standing ovation at their conference- for what? I don’t have children - but this makes me think what other messes could they make. The same nut- who lives in Louth- sends her children to a Bunn Scoil in Newry. Sorry to go on. In summary, the LC Could really use another year of solid education - no transition year- to bring it up to a least 6 yrs. Would do no harm. As for 20% dropping out at JC level? Drop the extra yr at primary , drop transition year, and that way they get 5 years at age 16- same as GCSE students- again 2 extra years will do no harm.. Anna

Anonymous said...

OMG GM this is shocking news shocking itell you a category 10 GUBU event that will go down in oirish history and may spell the end of that world class gombeen FF PARASITE GOBSHITEthe irish auctioneer, wouldnt that be sweeeeet and well worth the present misery

Anonymous said...

The Irish are all front and mobbish in nature. This media driven crap know as craic is all part of it.

Say what you want about the UK, as GM said, they have accountability. In Ireland its a dirty word. They set up a tribunal which costs millons and does nothing more than tell you what you already know, slowly!!!

The Irish have become very shallow and insincere. Trust is a distant memory here. Do you know what, they did that all by themselves with no help from the old enemy!! Maybe it is western capitalism, maybe its not, maybe its the fact that the Irish suddenly have more money and what we are experenicng is something which was always there, minus the money part. I think its the latter as I never believed the holy Ireland mantra (another front, where the most vulnerable suffered).

Its the most frustrating country, on the planet. At every level.

Max, if you think you have it bad (and you dont)it could be far, far worse. Move to Dublin see how long it is before you can see right through the Irish. You'll end up tearing your hair out, as insane stupidy is the norm here. Having worked in London and visited it many times, you have it easy.

Anonymous said...

I don't doubt your assertion that "...the country has been ruled by a golden circle" but our golden circle got together and drew up the Magna Carta and have been in charge ever since, which I think trumps your golden circle by a long way.

"One thing for the British, at least when their politicians are found out, they resign (or are forced to)". LOL

I assume you are talking about New Britain, off the coast of Papua New Guinea, because that is certainly not the case in Old Britain.

I do not doubt your stats about Irish education but this highlights problems of a widening gap between those who achieve and those who do not.

We have the same problems here in Britain, but here they are much worse. Your best is as good as ours but our worst is so so much worse than yours. Sad to say some of the UK's inner city schools are a waking nightmare for the kids who attend them and the teachers who work there.

Max, London

The Gombeen Man said...


No I'm not talking about New Britain or Little Britain, for that matter. Do a search for "British politician jailed" or "British politican resigned" then try the same thing substituting "Irish" for British. Or try some example of corrupt Irish politicans who kept getting voted back in... Michael Lowry, Charlie Haughey, Bertie Ahern, Liam Lawlor.

Maybe you've been living away from the "auld country" too long, and have developed a green-tinted nostalgic, sentimental view of it? Or maybe you are suffused by some confused residual patriotism, akin perhaps to young British muslims in Bradford hankering after Sharia Law?

Or perhaps you are just winding us up?

Whatever the case, your malaise could be cured by carefully reading and considering the views of the posters above who have first hand experience of contemporary life here.

The Gombeen Man said...

As we seem to have strayed:

"OMG GM this is shocking news shocking itell you a category 10 GUBU event that will go down in oirish history and may spell the end of that world class gombeen FF PARASITE GOBSHITEthe irish auctioneer, wouldnt that be sweeeeet and well worth the present misery"

Bang on topic, as ever, Mr BH

Anonymous said...

Max, golden circle in the UK, yeah, most countries have one. The difference between Ireland Ink and the UK is there is an effective tradition of opposition to it in the UK. Its ingrained in the culture there. Even within New Labour there is still a very real presence of traditional left. That is not present to any extent in Ireland. There is NO effective, functioning, credible and trustworthy opposition to the Golden Circle here. Thats why there is no comparison.

Anonymous said...

" The difference between Ireland Ink and the UK is there is an effective tradition of opposition to it in the UK. Its ingrained in the culture there."

Sorry Anonymous but you couldn't be further from the truth.

What is engrained in the culture here is a class system that has allowed a golden circle to exploit people for centuries. What is engrained in the culture of the British working class is passive acceptance of their miserable disenfranchised existence.

Opposition in Britain is a joke. Both sides pander to the golden circle and our remedial voting system means all voters can do is choose tweedle dum or tweedle dummer.

Anna said...

Ireland is unique in not facing up to problems until it is Too late to do anything- people will say
1) There’s no problem.
2) There is a problem- but other countries - Nearly Always the UK are far far worse. My experience of the UK was they would admit when there was a problem and start doing some thing. A huge under class now exists, inner city schools can have V low results, it’s a vexed problem & solutions are being found slowly- excellent results in these schools will take years. But they Do See When there are Problems. Actually Irish people are usually far more deeply obsessed by problems in UK education than in Ireland. Because Here there Never are any problems. So people are left to lumber along and find their own solutions.
*EG: the LC really should be 6 yrs for a demanding degree. Because it’s 5 yrs students can struggle- and a high % can drop out after 1 yr. The most able will start again at some stage / repeat a yr. So the extra initial year at college – all paid for by students & parents- always looks to me as a substitute for a proper 6th yr at school- without the government adding to the school curriculum, by changing transition to another yr of education (you would not get TY in another EU country). A brilliant solution - and doesn’t cost the government a thing.
·Also a mad points race- for scant college places- means Irish school kids spurn science/ technology LC to do easier subjects (For 1 thing a Huge no study Home economics). Hence *not enough Science/tech graduates. *This Is already beginning to concern multi nationals who brought it to the government’s attention 5 yrs ago; Microsoft said,’At best Irish education is average-and the main reason we are in Ireland is the tax advantages’. Another government would be worried - not this one. Poland & the Czech Republic have good school / college systems- shouldn’t you be worried the jobs go there?
*The No of Computer graduates here is also Way down- another alarming stat, (1 of the big computer companies here said to Government, again about 5 yrs ago, they would leave if they can’t get enough graduates).
·However, Universities in NI are turning out about 2000(?) (? did I get that right? well, a lot anyway) IT graduates a year. NI has asked the Prime Minister for Years for a 12% tax rate- to boost job creation- so far it’s not forthcoming. NI has a lot of graduates And much lower wages. If it got 12% tax rate, it Could get a lot of jobs.
But This country will carry on ignoring the glaring problems the education system here has until it’s too late and the jobs have gone.( see F O’T – he often thinks the same as I do on this)
Incidentally Ireland had 2 universities in the world’s top lists- UCD & TCD. I see those lists and the UK always has a no of universities on it. The UK and Germany are the 2 European countries which have the most no of foreign students- education is a big business in both. So it beats me that anyone could say UK’s universities are mostly poor and despised.
I’m no educationalist, but I did dip into it a lot: Mostly I’m just a wily & poverty stricken person, who just wanted to knock off enough exams/ Diplomas to get a good job & finally make some decent lolly. But if I Was in charge of secondary schools here I’d introduce a compulsory course in Logical Thinking- it’s badly needed. -Anna

Anonymous said...

Anon, you miss my point. What I was alluding to was the comparison between an Irish system which is based on a misplaced aggression to the "old enemy," compliance, short sightedness and madness and an English tradition which has a background of opposition to the ruling elite over conditions, equality etc. Obvious examples are the founding of the Union tradition and Labour party in the UK. Its not the traditional (or old lefts) lefts fault that the PC and economic Darwinists have more sway now than they did. (I'm not saying the traditional left were correct in their philosophy but they where tangible and the very least, symbolic). It is a fact especially over the last 20 years that capitalism ran riot and brought most of the traditional left right divide towards the centre but again in the UK you still have a symbolic divide in politics. In Ireland the divide is virtually non existant not least because its based on an event (civil war)which happened in the early part of the last century!!!!!

The UK has a class system thats obvious but at least its honest and straight forward. Here in Ireland like everything else its swept under the carpet. It exists more so than the UK but of course its not talked about or acknowledged here. The really sad thing is, those that are effected by it dont realise what it is.

You say people in the UK have no choice when it comes to choosing a political party. Maybe so, the UK has a lot of serious problems and a lot of probs which will get far worse. (Education is a good example - an example which will be followed by Ireland. Its only a matter of time).

Thats the UK but here in Ireland they take those failed solutions and adapt them to an Irish enviornment. They see the painful mistakes made in the UK and do them here. This country nearly always gets a warning from circumstances in other countries but they still go ahead anyway and do the same. LOL. Examples such as Council Tax, toll roads (paying for the same road twice, LOL).

Please spare a thought for the Irish who only have one party to choose from, namely ME FEIN.

Anna said...

Getting directly back on the post:
Life must be V hard for the miserable**disenfranchised working class Brits*
( *as a N Irelander from a working class family I am technically among that number)
So how is it that these miserable people are not being saddled with the criminal debts of their better classes? Bank bail out went on in the UK- but not to the extent of saddling miserable UK peasants with debts for generations to come.
No, that whole scale swindle only went on in Ireland, where (as is implied), people do Not passively accept their miserable lot. Unlike the UK.
So why is this country suffering recession like none other in Europe, or the developed world? Anyway as we are unlike the UK, and Do Not Passively accept our fate, what is our plan? Like Iceland’s? Riots outside parliament and a forced and drastic change of Government?
Haven’t seen riots yet. We must have a better plan. We do have a plan don’t we?
(** My friend Tony is often down from Belfast. He lands right in the north inner city at the bus/ train station. He is Amazed at no of people off their heads. Homeless etc . He does not see this in Belfast. I haven’t been in many deprived UK cities. But at least over there at some stage Some one will see this as a problem and try and do something)

The Gombeen Man said...

Very true, folks. Britain's political parties were at least drawn on class lines... even now in New Labour, as pointed out by Anon, there is still a presence of the old guard. A visit to any Labour Club in Britain will confirm this... The Red Rose Club in Islington was one I knew of in my time there. Cheap pints too! Ireland's politics, on the other hand, is still stuck back in the civil war. Tweedle Dee/Tweedle Dum if ever.

And as you point out, Anna, there is no British NAMA. Nor would they stand for it. Now it appears that Sean Dunne will still keep a share in his Ballsbridge sites after "a deal" was done with the banks. A deal? He owes millions more than he properties are now worth... how can there be a deal?

Its sad, that so many Irish - both here and expatriate - are only too eager to cite the 800 years as the source of all ills. A bit like Snowball in Animal farm. Baaaaaaa!!!

Anonymous said...

Nice quote from the Economist review of

The Bankers: How the Banks Brought Ireland to Its Knees. By Shane Ross.

Follow the Money. By David McWilliams.

Ship of Fools: How Stupidity and Corruption Sank the Celtic Tiger. By Fintan O’Toole.

Mr O’Toole and his fellow journalists agree that greed and ineptitude on the part of the wealthy and the powerful are to blame for Ireland’s economic crash-landing being more violent than its peers. There is a great deal to this view. But it may be too narrow. A sometimes inward-looking island nation of fewer than 4.5m people, Ireland certainly has its fair share of corruption, cliques and stitch-ups. But property manias can take hold in even the best governed countries. Besides, if Ireland were as corrupt as these writers claim, surely all those foreign companies who operate successfully would have left long ago, or never come in the first place?

Anonymous said...

Why do Irish that hate the British go and work/live there. Even those that dont move there the same me feiners, who when the need takes them are anti - British they all drink their beer, fanatically follow their football teams, watch there TV, drive their cars Etc.... Etc.... and dont see a problem with this.

The Celtic Tiger demonstrated to all - that wanted to see, that is - exactly what many Irish were made of. Far worse or at least on a par with the worst excesses of the Empire. The irony is nauseating.

GM I'm glad you see that. Political system in Ireland Etc. Again there maybe many serious probs in Britain but they dont have this all pervasive dont ask dont tell culture. Based on manipulation and stupidity.

Anna not sure there is a specific plan, there is 4 million non specific ones though.

Anonymous said...

The comments relating to social class show a very common misconception as to what social class is, common that is for people outside the UK.

It is not just about money and status, it is about breeding and pedigree. It is about not just you having money and power and status, it is about your ancestors from the 1600s being wealthy and having status also.

The British upper classes have no respect for the likes of Richard Branson, because he is not 'old money'.

A story is told that Alan Clark (descended from a Baron) used to laugh among his friends at Michael Heseltine (a millionaire at the time) because he 'bought his own furniture'. That for me typifies the sort of engrained class distinction that we have in Britain and that you might get in Ireland in a few hundred years.

Max, London

The Gombeen Man said...

Max, the Anon post three above quoting the Economist is yours, I believe.

As I have said before, the US multis are here for tax reasons, no other. The fact that we prostitute ourselves as a centre for processing the multis worldwide profits for tax evasion does not make us a mature, sophisticated republic. Quite the opposite - they are here because we are a "banana republic... septic isle". On the point made in your signed post on Old Money in Britain, the old aristocracy is just an anachronism. Many of them don't even have the money to heat their stately homes and have to open them up to the public.

Other Anon. One thing about doing the blog is that at least I can get feedback from the likes of yourself, Anna, Ponyboy, GS, BH, Ella and other Irish people who do see beyond their noses. Yes, the "don't ask don't tell culture" is a very real prob here alright.

Anna, I wouldn't hold my breath for that plan... on the subject of the obvious social deprivation/dysfunctionality in town, I have never seen it anywhere else to such an extent. As I say, I lived for a time in one of Britain's poorest boroughs, Newham (Stratford to be precise), and it was nothing like Dublin.

Anna said...

Did not even mean to post the last one- got carried away- I’m blogging a lot, as I’m Giving It Up For Lent.
I’m getting out of shape & need to tone up, weather better now for hill walking, swimming pool etc etc. As a woman I have to concentrate on what ( at times) is really important. Getting a bikini body. Yes life is hard- and then you diet.
I said All I wanted to say for a long time- most things I have a gripe about in fact- & here’s the 1 I meant to post:

From David Mc Williams Book, pub Sept 2009,
“Follow the Money’ - PAGE 27
Brian Lenihan , Finance minister consulted DMW in Sept 2008- what to do with the banks?. DMW said a no of them should be just wound up.
I gather a number of EU watchers- probably Germany UK, EU central bank may have wanted this. Seems it was original plan, Lenihan discussed with DMW.
DMW flew to China, so was away when this was made public.
By that time, however, Lenihan had decided to go soft on our robber banks.
“A little while later the minister called me ( in China).He was euphoric. He guffawed,’ The Brits are furious, so we must be doing something right.’ The dyed - in - the- wool Republican who was on display in our kitchen two weeks ago was still on display’.
Another quote from DMW, himself, further down the page:
Í expected our most delinquent banks would eventually go to the wall and that people who had brought the country to its knees would be brought to theirs.’
Anti British hatred I am told could be a product of deep poverty. Leniihan was privately educated at Belvedere college. Then UCD & Kings Inn- he is a high ranking barrister. His father was a Government minister. In fairness , he has Nothing to Do with our ruin- and only took over as Finance minister In March 2008.
His senior buddies Brian Cowan ( Taoiseach) and Mary Coughlan
( Tanaiste - deputy leader) inherited their dead fathers jobs in their early ‘20s- they had hardly worked themselves. ( seems it is called coffin surfing). Lenihan , however was a barrister till age 37- he only became a TD then. He is regarded as being a good bit more competent and intelligent than his 2 buddies- he once did a real job.
Well 1.4 yrs on,, did the ‘Lets spite the Brits’’ school of economic rescue work. No. The entire nation are furious now. Plucky little Republican Ireland ignored all best advice from EU nations including the UK. Inflated zombie bank Anglo Irish, Nothing to do with Anglos former boss, Sean Fitzpatrick being a good friend of Bertie Aherns. Created NAMA.
Is anyone Doing A Thing To jail Irish bankers and ( maybe ) see that our weary nation , Might get some of our dough back. Well, The Furious Brits Senior Fraud Office are after Anglo Irish bank.
Typical, just typical. They’ll dress it up in lies, you know, have to protect the public from criminals. But we know it shows their hatred of real Irish patriots….
Must go….swimming on sat, walk Sunday..Tuesday last pancakes of a condemned woman ,.then juice fasts & walks. Back in 8 weeks..Anna

The Gombeen Man said...

The other one was fine Anna. But I'll leave it off it you prefer.

That Lenihan quote sums up the mentality very well. Comforting to know such an intellect is running the economy at this time.

Good luck with the regime - but I hope you're only joking about giving up the blogging! Not for Gombeen Nation anyway. Anyway, I'm sure they've wi-fi on Lough Derg these days. ;-)