Wednesday, 18 April 2012

Property tax - ESRI hints at "income" element

Interesting to hear a spokesperson for the ESRI discussing the impending property tax on RTE's Morning Ireland.  

One option, he said, was to take earnings into account.  

Am I missing something here, or was the property tax not lauded as a means of broadening the tax base? Mainly composed, at present – in terms of income tax – by the PAYE sector? 

Here's some food for thought.  A report published by Bank of Ireland in 2007 found that:

1% of the population in Ireland had assets of EUR 100 billion in 2006.

The top 1% owns 20% of the wealth, the top 2% owns 30%, and the top 5% owns 40%.

There were 33,000 millionaires in Ireland in 2006.

Yet things were very different, as far as Revenue was concerned: 

It could only count  7,857 taxpayers with incomes of more than EUR 275,000 in Ireland, and a paltry 25,000 who earned more than EUR 150,000.   (Fintan O'Toole, Irish Times, 28/10/2008).

Such figures would indicate that any property tax that includes an "income" element, would be deeply flawed and unjust – a mechanism for extracting even more money from the already tax-compliant citizens of the country. 

Therefore leaving the usual dodgers laughing all the way to the accountant's office.

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John said...

You may add to that, GM, the fact that the wealthty are mostly tax exiles and that they get full suppport and use of the Courts when they want to vindicate thier rights.

Dakota said...

"The top 1% owns 20% of the wealth, the top 2% owns 30%, and the top 5% owns 40%." Something is not computing here GM, where are all the 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009 etc cars coming from? They can't be all showroom sales people engaging in viral marketing.

As for PROPERTY TAX it can never be fair in Ireland as long as there is no REFORM, a MULITUDE OF QUANGOS and an ALRIGHT PADDY AND HAULING UP THE LADDER ATTITUDE prevalent in the country.

Add, GM into that, a MEJA that constantly plays the public and private sectors off against one another, a detatched and bovine public and an "ELITE" that have plumbed new debts (individuals back to drinking rain water?!) and it's a blind race to the bottom, of the cesspit (an activity no longer non taxable).

Property tax and water charges? EHHH,,,BREAKING NEWS, THIS IS NOT FRANCE, the U.S, UK or anywhere else, IT'S IRELAND. A nation that views anyone with a smidgen of organisational ability as NON IRISH. For all those who believe that OIRELAND should have a PROOOPERTY TAAAAX and WAAAATER CHARRRRRGES because everywhere else does, GROW UP, GET OVER YOURSELF AND FINALLY UNDERSTND THAT A DONKEY GOES IN FRONT OF A CART AND NOT BEHIND.

If this Government and associated non thinking Blobs were concerned with conserving water they would have fixed the LEAKS by now. They haven't so they don't. One and one is still two. If they were concerned with creating JOBS and stabilizing the HOUSING MARKET (the only way the hole is going to become whole again) they would have spoken out over inflated house prices pre bust. Again they didn't so they don't. The Irish Government is nothing more than a collection agency for the Troika. Wood and trees.

Ella said...

Hi GM, Property taxes and water taxes like our European neighbours. I wonder do they have VRT like their Irish neighbours?
Your average PAYE worker will pick up the tab, like they do for everything else in this septic isle of ours.

@Dakota - Agreed - a property tax here can never be fair. Take earnings into account - yeah a household might take home EUR 4000 per month and then spend more than EUR 2000 on their mortgage. There are many people living in large houses and a quick walk past confirms they don't have two pennies to rub together. A house valued at EUR 250,000 in the big smoke is going to be fairly modest in comparison to a house & land valued at EUR 250,000 say in Cavan or Leitrim. Whilst imposing all these charges the powers that be might do well to think about the recent credit union survey.

The Gombeen Man said...

John. Yes, the legal process is the preserve of the rich and those who qualify for legal aid. If you are somewhere between, you haven't a hope. The landlord Madigan did it years back in the 80s, when protected tenacy (long-term) rights were shown to be "unconstitutional".

@ Dakota. The amount of water lost underground is the Pacific. The amount of water people might waste due to leaving taps on when brushing their teeth, making sure the toilet is flushed and so on, is Lough Ree. They have to fix that before they start their pious water charges.

@ Ella. They pick and mix what they want. So they will have water charges and property tax - then you have to pay for a privatised bin collection service.

The simple answer to all this is rates. Rates that include all local services. But Paddy and Mary weren't having that.

And yes, they will continue to apply VRT (which denies free movement of goods from other EU members states into Ireland), as they are just all about taxation. Any name they can give it will do.

Boston and Berlin - all the bad bits.


All of the posters above have signed their comments. I have had several others which were unsigned and have not been published as a result.

I don't think I'm being picky or precious here - and I have made this point politely several times before. Even if someone forgets now and again, thats fine - but not singing out of priniciple is not on.

Is is unreasonable to expect comments to be signed (a real name or a pseudonym, I don't care - as long as just one is used)?

The reasons for this are clear - to show respect to the blog, its readers, and those who comment on it.

Please sign comments. Thanks.

John said...

Interesting note on property rights,(Mangan case is in the law books by the way), a few weeks back on the tv3, Vicent Browne show, some panel member mentioned that the Revenue where looking at 40 very wealthy people as regards tax and residence. He mentioned that they were treading carefully, as they feared a Supreme Court action dealing with"property rights", so it looks like nothing will be done.

Dakota said...

Ella, the country is riddled with corruption. It's in the air (possibly next for taxation?). The reason that property in Dublin (the only entity big enough to be termed a city on the Island) will be fleeced (taxed) in disproportion to far larger properties on larger plots, down deee countraaay, is because most of the cute hoors are either originally from outside Dublin, or living outside the city. Hence the lobby group would either make life difficult for the heros extended family, or lynch the hero if he/she set foot there again. Ireland is corrupt and backward and property and water taxes are for one reason, and one reason only, and that's to pay for reckless casino betting.